1 00:00:00,701 --> 00:00:03,235 You know the book 'End of Work'? 2 00:00:03,397 --> 00:00:07,552 -Rifkin? -Rifkin, yes. Jeremy Rifkin said: 3 00:00:08,052 --> 00:00:12,844 "Madagascar.... Certain islands produce vanilla flavor. 4 00:00:13,007 --> 00:00:17,983 It's one of the most popular flavors for ice-cream and candy. 5 00:00:20,163 --> 00:00:24,589 They get about $25 a pound for vanilla 6 00:00:24,906 --> 00:00:27,740 but it takes a lot of nurturing and work." 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,408 A scientific group began to make vanilla 8 00:00:31,699 --> 00:00:35,459 synthetic vanilla, same atomic structure 9 00:00:36,327 --> 00:00:40,362 They can make it for about $3 a pound 10 00:00:41,113 --> 00:00:46,337 versus $25. That's going to wipe out all the island's survivors 11 00:00:46,685 --> 00:00:49,312 the farmers, you understand, in Madagascar. 12 00:00:49,456 --> 00:00:51,959 It's going to wipe out all those people. 13 00:00:52,099 --> 00:00:55,653 There are always people that think they won't be wiped out 14 00:00:55,793 --> 00:00:57,945 because they're the managers. 15 00:00:58,299 --> 00:01:02,823 Japan has program managers 16 00:01:03,126 --> 00:01:06,868 that sequence core production. 17 00:01:07,506 --> 00:01:12,151 They get all the workers to work together as a team 18 00:01:13,197 --> 00:01:16,592 and they move the machines at a certain speed. 19 00:01:16,825 --> 00:01:20,936 Then they pick it up a little to get the guys working faster. 20 00:01:21,076 --> 00:01:24,573 The guys complain. 21 00:01:25,641 --> 00:01:28,703 If they complain too much, they're canned. 22 00:01:29,043 --> 00:01:33,865 They keep grinding the machines faster until a person 23 00:01:34,116 --> 00:01:38,444 slows up. When he slows up there's a light that blinks at his station 24 00:01:38,907 --> 00:01:41,722 so the other guys say "Pick it up!" 25 00:01:41,904 --> 00:01:44,401 There's a lot of stress in Japan 26 00:01:44,797 --> 00:01:47,413 emotional stress because they work them 27 00:01:47,807 --> 00:01:50,160 continuously; they order them. 28 00:01:50,585 --> 00:01:53,976 It's team work and they love the company 29 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,421 and after hours, they have company dinners 30 00:01:57,564 --> 00:02:01,719 and affairs. The worker hardly ever sees 31 00:02:02,282 --> 00:02:04,427 the members of his family. 32 00:02:04,628 --> 00:02:07,656 Years later, after they retire 33 00:02:07,925 --> 00:02:11,216 they usually degenerate because 34 00:02:11,672 --> 00:02:13,699 they've been worked to the limit. 35 00:02:13,839 --> 00:02:16,999 They have no hobby, thinking or anything else 36 00:02:17,251 --> 00:02:19,627 and they're lost without the company. 37 00:02:20,170 --> 00:02:23,150 Do you understand? There are psychological problems. 38 00:02:23,292 --> 00:02:26,215 (Intv) The company is like their 'family' more than their real family. 39 00:02:26,365 --> 00:02:31,227 - Yes, the company pushes and shoves to see how much it can get out of them. 40 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:36,865 What you have to remember is that the company will not succeed 41 00:02:37,006 --> 00:02:39,616 unless it's faster than General Motors 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,241 better than Toyota. You know what I mean? 43 00:02:43,929 --> 00:02:47,786 They can't. The whole world today depends on 44 00:02:47,949 --> 00:02:50,333 how efficient your production is. 45 00:02:50,477 --> 00:02:54,055 If you have machines doing most of the work 46 00:02:54,287 --> 00:02:56,885 then the help has to be 47 00:02:57,209 --> 00:03:01,671 like computer programmers. They all make recommendations 48 00:03:01,865 --> 00:03:04,303 and they familiarize all the workers 49 00:03:04,459 --> 00:03:07,043 with every aspect of production. 50 00:03:08,032 --> 00:03:10,509 They are 'generalists' 51 00:03:10,822 --> 00:03:14,782 in the automobile production field, not in thinking. 52 00:03:15,770 --> 00:03:19,074 Their devotion to the company is like a mother. 53 00:03:19,290 --> 00:03:22,228 Without that mother, they'd have no jobs. 54 00:03:22,846 --> 00:03:26,327 There's new organizations forming in Japan 55 00:03:26,487 --> 00:03:31,451 that try to counteract that, but that doesn't bring any money to Japan 56 00:03:31,753 --> 00:03:34,324 so it won't be too successful. 57 00:03:34,543 --> 00:03:38,308 You can't counteract something unless you bring something new. 58 00:03:38,556 --> 00:03:41,362 (Intv) They don't give many social services over there either, do they? 59 00:03:41,490 --> 00:03:45,901 -They do have some. The Japanese that have been laid off 60 00:03:46,673 --> 00:03:50,977 and those affiliated with good will and all that 61 00:03:51,509 --> 00:03:53,761 to a limited extent. 62 00:03:54,043 --> 00:03:59,121 Japan doesn't have the social services the US has, yet. 63 00:04:01,583 --> 00:04:06,238 When they get laid off there is no future. There's nothing they can study 64 00:04:06,786 --> 00:04:09,191 unless they study computer programming 65 00:04:09,335 --> 00:04:13,370 and they have a hell of a lot of computer programmers in Japan. 66 00:04:13,689 --> 00:04:16,826 Do you understand? The programmer 67 00:04:17,122 --> 00:04:19,675 operates the sequences 68 00:04:20,056 --> 00:04:22,846 whereas the foreman used to do that. 69 00:04:22,990 --> 00:04:26,262 He used to say "The wheels come on. Now they go to painting." 70 00:04:26,553 --> 00:04:30,054 Now the computerized program does that. 71 00:04:31,998 --> 00:04:34,882 The guy in charge used to be in the front office. 72 00:04:35,039 --> 00:04:37,790 Now his desk is right in the shop 73 00:04:38,489 --> 00:04:40,693 next to the working man. 74 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,710 They dress like the working man; they wear the same clothing 75 00:04:46,141 --> 00:04:49,555 and that's to make them feel that they're all one. 76 00:04:51,121 --> 00:04:55,247 American engineers went to Japan to study their system 77 00:04:55,403 --> 00:04:58,234 and they're installing it in America. 78 00:04:59,574 --> 00:05:02,145 That's what 'time-and-motion people' are. 79 00:05:02,316 --> 00:05:05,882 They get more motion out of people in less time. 80 00:05:06,301 --> 00:05:10,796 If you assemble certain things using a straight assembly bench 81 00:05:10,934 --> 00:05:14,038 if you bend it, all the parts are nearer 82 00:05:14,269 --> 00:05:18,336 and so you can assemble things faster, but you don't get paid more. 83 00:05:18,656 --> 00:05:21,534 Do you know what I mean? So 'time-and-motion men' 84 00:05:21,684 --> 00:05:25,445 are also engineers who try to get the most motion 85 00:05:25,585 --> 00:05:28,644 in the least amount of time out of most people. 86 00:05:28,844 --> 00:05:31,453 As their job is to get to do that 87 00:05:31,712 --> 00:05:34,471 their job is not to benefit people. 88 00:05:35,149 --> 00:05:38,109 There should be psychologists 89 00:05:38,249 --> 00:05:42,269 to study stress levels and stop [it] at a certain point. 90 00:05:43,208 --> 00:05:46,886 That does not help the company, do you understand? 91 00:05:47,026 --> 00:05:51,237 That's why they don't have psychological fatigue studies 92 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,467 but we would have that because that means more hospitalization. 93 00:05:56,607 --> 00:05:59,107 If you don't have fatigue studies 94 00:05:59,270 --> 00:06:02,756 the company doesn't pay for it, the worker pays for it 95 00:06:02,896 --> 00:06:07,266 so that's his problem. If he gets sick or has a nervous breakdown 96 00:06:07,504 --> 00:06:10,748 and has to go to a psychologist or to a hospital. 97 00:06:11,305 --> 00:06:13,431 The company does not study that 98 00:06:13,571 --> 00:06:18,123 because it doesn't do them any good to find out what the level is. 99 00:06:18,263 --> 00:06:22,192 I think it would do them good, but they don't understand that. 100 00:06:22,962 --> 00:06:26,300 All they have are charts of production levels. 101 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,762 If it goes up higher, whatever the production line is 102 00:06:29,902 --> 00:06:32,049 that's getting that high mark 103 00:06:32,189 --> 00:06:34,519 called exponential curve. 104 00:06:34,663 --> 00:06:37,478 They try to put that on all levels. 105 00:06:37,809 --> 00:06:39,817 Japanese companies 106 00:06:39,949 --> 00:06:43,727 do not share ideas with other Japanese companies 107 00:06:44,075 --> 00:06:47,968 but they do welcome visits to their plant 108 00:06:48,412 --> 00:06:52,682 and people make notes and walk away with the same thing. 109 00:06:53,616 --> 00:06:57,369 The supermarkets (I don't know if you notice this) 110 00:06:57,509 --> 00:07:00,365 don't have all the cashiers working. 111 00:07:00,666 --> 00:07:03,274 They have certain aisles open 112 00:07:03,493 --> 00:07:07,262 and they put more load on the girls, [it's] tabulated. 113 00:07:07,867 --> 00:07:10,539 They have new machines 114 00:07:10,745 --> 00:07:13,826 that measure the phone calls that the help makes 115 00:07:13,989 --> 00:07:15,999 while they're on the production line. 116 00:07:16,139 --> 00:07:20,191 If a phone call runs over a certain amount of time, it's noticed. 117 00:07:20,331 --> 00:07:25,655 It's printed out so the executive managers of the supermarkets 118 00:07:25,855 --> 00:07:30,103 know how much time you spend on the phone, even though it's your family. 119 00:07:30,770 --> 00:07:36,209 If you take more than four days off a year, they tend to can you. 120 00:07:38,638 --> 00:07:43,546 When I say capitalism is inefficient, it hurts itself because 121 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,689 the more people you lay off eventually 122 00:07:46,829 --> 00:07:49,999 they won't have the money to pay taxes or buy the products. 123 00:07:50,139 --> 00:07:51,920 Do you understand what I'm saying? 124 00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:54,483 If you don't you're supposed to interrupt me. 125 00:07:54,623 --> 00:07:59,345 Capitalism was OK maybe a hundred years ago 126 00:07:59,634 --> 00:08:04,617 because we didn't have any other systems, but it's socially offensive today. 127 00:08:05,102 --> 00:08:09,287 People have higher stress levels, most normal people 128 00:08:09,844 --> 00:08:12,866 because their company tries to get them 129 00:08:13,063 --> 00:08:17,404 to take their work home and think about it. 130 00:08:17,767 --> 00:08:20,827 (intv) But you've been around a while. Would you say 131 00:08:20,967 --> 00:08:23,243 stress levels...If you think back once, 20 years ... 132 00:08:23,383 --> 00:08:25,335 -Even among the executives... 133 00:08:25,475 --> 00:08:28,832 (Intv) Let's say when you were a child, do you think back and remember if 134 00:08:28,970 --> 00:08:32,922 people had just as much stress then as they do now or less? 135 00:08:33,062 --> 00:08:36,211 -They had less 136 00:08:36,343 --> 00:08:39,005 because they weren't laid off as much. 137 00:08:39,145 --> 00:08:42,245 Today you work for a company, you get laid off 138 00:08:42,389 --> 00:08:46,144 and you look for the same job again and it's gone. 139 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:49,683 Automation is being installed very quickly 140 00:08:49,823 --> 00:08:52,478 and the rate that automation is being installed 141 00:08:52,618 --> 00:08:54,462 is going up like that. 142 00:08:54,602 --> 00:08:57,239 It isn't a slow, long curve. 143 00:08:58,979 --> 00:09:01,835 If they build automation plants 144 00:09:02,210 --> 00:09:05,454 you don't need heating in the winter 145 00:09:05,983 --> 00:09:08,668 because machines don't need that. 146 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,733 When you've got humans working there, you need heating 147 00:09:11,867 --> 00:09:16,415 daylight and electric lamps. You don't need that with machines. 148 00:09:17,088 --> 00:09:21,206 You also have to give a little insurance on the working people. 149 00:09:21,445 --> 00:09:24,620 You have to have a nurse and a first aid station. 150 00:09:24,766 --> 00:09:27,412 You don't need that with machines. 151 00:09:27,788 --> 00:09:32,319 With machines it's called 'lights-out manufacturing'. 152 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:36,588 A factory could be dark, as long as it's automated. 153 00:09:36,812 --> 00:09:41,614 That's why... Human systems go on strike, they smoke 154 00:09:41,764 --> 00:09:45,500 they go to the bathroom, they fuck off which is all normal 155 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,732 but with machines there's no fuck off. 156 00:09:49,034 --> 00:09:54,087 They work hard all the time and make no demands. 157 00:09:55,051 --> 00:09:58,990 If I say we're moving toward a machine world 158 00:09:59,147 --> 00:10:04,430 it isn't a wish that I have. It's a natural direction of technology. 159 00:10:05,183 --> 00:10:08,524 An engineer's job is to tighten up systems 160 00:10:08,664 --> 00:10:10,672 and make things work better. 161 00:10:11,050 --> 00:10:13,990 The engineers don't know that they're 162 00:10:14,130 --> 00:10:17,763 hurting other people. They say "Well, why don't you become an engineer?" 163 00:10:17,903 --> 00:10:20,270 until they get laid off. 164 00:10:20,591 --> 00:10:25,071 Until you have a...You have a monitor in a supermarket 165 00:10:25,371 --> 00:10:27,689 that works with a cashier 166 00:10:27,852 --> 00:10:30,479 that measures the time. If a person calls up and says 167 00:10:30,616 --> 00:10:33,925 "Are you having any specials on beans today?" 168 00:10:34,065 --> 00:10:38,528 If they spend too much time on the phone, they're moved out 169 00:10:38,668 --> 00:10:41,803 and so their phone calls are monitored. 170 00:10:42,157 --> 00:10:45,780 The more you know about people and their bank accounts 171 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,738 the more you know that we're going to have a good business year 172 00:10:49,888 --> 00:10:52,797 if a lot of people have savings in the bank. 173 00:10:52,937 --> 00:10:56,897 Banks do monitor what you buy 174 00:10:57,035 --> 00:11:00,404 and how much you withdraw and how much you put back in. 175 00:11:00,544 --> 00:11:04,490 The more banks know about you (there are certain things 176 00:11:04,630 --> 00:11:07,233 they're not supposed to do that are against the law) 177 00:11:07,377 --> 00:11:12,367 but their lawyers say "Well listen, we want to know 178 00:11:12,507 --> 00:11:16,554 whether a person is an agitator, or a communist"... 179 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,512 The more information you get on people: 180 00:11:19,652 --> 00:11:22,615 their savings, habits, hobbies 181 00:11:22,755 --> 00:11:26,469 the more you know about them, the more you can predict. 182 00:11:26,609 --> 00:11:30,811 What science is about is predictability. 183 00:11:31,359 --> 00:11:33,957 You know if you go hunting Wednesdays 184 00:11:34,097 --> 00:11:36,794 you're going to catch more deer than Sunday 185 00:11:36,934 --> 00:11:39,558 because everybody's out there hunting on a Sunday 186 00:11:39,698 --> 00:11:41,254 Do you know what I mean? 187 00:11:41,522 --> 00:11:43,994 If you keep a record of that 188 00:11:44,134 --> 00:11:48,476 you have to do that for yourself in order to catch a deer 189 00:11:49,049 --> 00:11:51,315 Does that make sense? 190 00:11:51,555 --> 00:11:54,057 If you share your idea "Always go Wednesday 191 00:11:54,197 --> 00:11:56,189 because it's least crowded" 192 00:11:56,329 --> 00:11:59,254 or a guy says "Instead of taking Saturday off from work 193 00:11:59,398 --> 00:12:02,317 I'm going to work Saturday and hunt Wednesday 194 00:12:02,473 --> 00:12:04,538 because there's more deer." 195 00:12:04,975 --> 00:12:08,744 He doesn't tell everybody in the plant that 196 00:12:08,888 --> 00:12:11,381 because everybody would do that. 197 00:12:12,419 --> 00:12:15,828 Self-interest hurts the majority of people 198 00:12:16,392 --> 00:12:20,912 but it doesn't hurt the person who's involved in self-interest. 199 00:12:21,252 --> 00:12:25,098 That's why most people stick to what they know. 200 00:12:25,366 --> 00:12:27,985 Because when you tell them there's another way 201 00:12:28,135 --> 00:12:31,424 it doesn't do anything for them right now. 202 00:12:31,695 --> 00:12:35,705 Do you understand that? That's why they're not interested 203 00:12:35,845 --> 00:12:39,032 but if the system continues to lay off people 204 00:12:39,180 --> 00:12:41,842 they're going to be forced to be interested. 205 00:12:42,198 --> 00:12:45,470 Let's say (I hope it's not too late) 206 00:12:45,624 --> 00:12:48,239 that the environment is so badly damaged 207 00:12:48,379 --> 00:12:51,795 and people are so badly laid off and so hungry 208 00:12:51,935 --> 00:12:53,883 that robberies will go up. 209 00:12:54,023 --> 00:12:57,952 If you cut out the support structure 210 00:12:58,183 --> 00:13:02,370 if they can't get a job and you cut out payments 211 00:13:02,510 --> 00:13:04,607 then crime will go up 212 00:13:05,062 --> 00:13:07,555 whether they hit you on the head and take your wallet 213 00:13:07,699 --> 00:13:09,961 or break into your house. 214 00:13:10,169 --> 00:13:13,995 It's more efficient for criminals to work as a gang 215 00:13:14,151 --> 00:13:17,076 rather than trying to rob a bank alone: 216 00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:20,373 have one guy outside looking around 217 00:13:20,517 --> 00:13:23,189 one guy setting a building on fire 218 00:13:23,329 --> 00:13:26,660 three miles from the bank to keep the police occupied. 219 00:13:26,829 --> 00:13:31,112 That's called 'strategy for bank-robbing' 220 00:13:31,319 --> 00:13:34,973 instead of you just going in with a gun saying 221 00:13:35,502 --> 00:13:39,687 "I want your money!" Banks are now installing very heavy 222 00:13:39,831 --> 00:13:42,328 laminated plate glass 223 00:13:42,468 --> 00:13:45,817 so that even if you point a gun at the teller 224 00:13:45,961 --> 00:13:48,304 she has a foot pedal she presses 225 00:13:48,448 --> 00:13:51,357 that rings an alarm at the police station 226 00:13:51,551 --> 00:13:54,451 that means there's a robbery underway. 227 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,808 They're not allowed to install a trap device in front of the cashier. 228 00:14:00,948 --> 00:14:03,937 When she presses that, the robber falls through the trap door. 229 00:14:04,077 --> 00:14:06,237 It might accidentally go off 230 00:14:06,377 --> 00:14:08,637 and they'll sue the shit out of the bank. 231 00:14:08,777 --> 00:14:13,090 They're not that accurate yet, but I can assure you when they are 232 00:14:13,247 --> 00:14:15,262 they'll install them. 233 00:14:15,402 --> 00:14:18,113 It becomes more difficult to become a criminal 234 00:14:18,251 --> 00:14:21,657 with all these cameras around the banks. 235 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:25,154 Should the banks put the cameras in? 236 00:14:25,417 --> 00:14:28,839 If they want to survive and don't want to be robbed every day 237 00:14:29,005 --> 00:14:32,929 they have to do that, and their insurance is less. 238 00:14:33,069 --> 00:14:34,608 Did you know that? 239 00:14:34,748 --> 00:14:38,334 If you put fire sprinklers in hotels 240 00:14:38,484 --> 00:14:41,132 your insurance is less 241 00:14:41,367 --> 00:14:45,435 so people put them in. They don't put them in for your benefit. 242 00:14:46,185 --> 00:14:48,192 You've got to remember that 243 00:14:48,449 --> 00:14:51,985 if you get sentimentally attached to any system 244 00:14:52,125 --> 00:14:56,284 including the one where you're an engineer and you make things faster... 245 00:14:56,424 --> 00:15:00,178 Engineers do not concern themselves with working people 246 00:15:00,449 --> 00:15:03,766 and say "Look if they were smart enough, they'd be engineers." 247 00:15:03,906 --> 00:15:06,731 But until the engineers get laid off... 248 00:15:06,948 --> 00:15:09,128 That's why Veblen wrote a book called 249 00:15:09,268 --> 00:15:12,576 'Engineers and the Price System'. 250 00:15:12,716 --> 00:15:16,300 He explains what will happen to engineers 251 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,384 and he says "You are the guys that make everything happen! 252 00:15:20,524 --> 00:15:22,774 You ought to be in charge of society" 253 00:15:22,914 --> 00:15:25,707 but no engineer thinks that way 254 00:15:26,042 --> 00:15:28,722 except in the early days of technocracy. 255 00:15:28,923 --> 00:15:31,532 A lot of engineers joined 256 00:15:31,844 --> 00:15:36,030 because they knew by reading Veblen 257 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,583 that eventually, they will be replaced.